Well I think you now have the record for the most nonsense put in a post.

If you are not going to put anything constructive in a post you are going to lose me as a reader.

If you want to talk about double ended hoses or address my questions from the other thread get after it.

40667

Yes, I do at times do expert witness work and am familiar with more than a few cases of people being nailed with double ended hoses. They would for the most part have been injured by un-coupled tip hoses, but not to the degree that they were with the double ended hose. I have also seen the effect, live and in color. It is not against the law to use a double ended hose; but it is unnecessary and dangerous. Why even do it and take the chance? The jury will not be happy with you either.

Art, Im not real sure why you would use that approach, we are not 10 year olds here. We all get the idea of how upset you are about some of the pictures posted. You said your peace once, no need to act like this. When you sit and harp on everyone with the approach your taking it is'nt going to do anything, they will keep doing it the same just to prove they can. And in reality, most of them will get away with it. Its sad, but very much true. No matter how much we all stress safety, accidents will always occur due to operators taking short cuts. Bob does a great job with the safety issues take notes from him, your taking it alittle over board, and really its kind of annoying. I dont see myself opening another post from you, and Im sure you dont care, but if some of the other guys feel the same, there goes your safety strategy right out the door. Try stressing safety and the importance of it rather than crying and acting like a baby!

 I seem to like Arts approach.There is NO politically correct in concrete pumping,there is NO ,I am sorry that I hurt your feelings.That was a very  good analogy when dropping a hose on the ground,one probably wouldnt even feel it when the end ripped half of his head off.I believe Art said he had been running a pump for 25 years,that in itself says something.To the young bucks who get offended when someone bites their head off trying to prove a point,get over it.We need more people like him........

ive been operating  a pump for 12 years now for the same company.in those 12 years ive operated evey size out there and every job ive done has been with a double ended hose .i have yet to knock any one down or hit any one with a hose or have a accident .im  not saying a double ended hose is good im just saying its all in the operator .know your pump and how it sounds catch the mistake before it happens have a little savy ..but i would say this dont let a rookie have one .

i enjoyed arts take on safety, as an owner he has everything he owns on the line. you cant hear every plug on the new machines they are so powerful they dont even grunt when the hose jumps up 3 or 4 feet .you can turn your head to look at a driver and when you look back the hose man is on his back split second if it hasnt happened to your arrogant self it will just wait. arts manner of discourse no big deal save your hurt feelings for important things. later

Well Bob this is interesting all the threads about double ended hoses and velocity reducers and you have never said you new of actual cases till now. A guy does have to wonder.

Lets try a real life example, one day I had to use 2 hoses on the end of the boom had to do the 3^rd floor over a precast wall, needed 2 hoses to reach the center of the building. Pumped 15 feet took one hose off and finished the job only about another 8 yards. I started out with a laying down single ended hose and ended up with a hanging double ended hose. I did not pump fast it was good concrete no problem. By your way of thinking I should have taken both hoses off put the single ended hose on and continued. Of course it would have taken longer to do that than to finish the other 8 yards. By my way of thinking it was a calculated risk now before anyone jumps on me about taking any risk, next time you are out pumping look up at that 15000+ lbs of iron up in the air and tell me about calculated risk.

Know lets try the bad out come there is a hose whip and someone gets hurt if I am lucky it will be minor but if it is serous I will be in trouble but here comes Bob the expert witness to make sure I fry. Because Bob believes (and do not lay this on the ACPA, OSHA,etc because you are there to fry me voluntarily) that there is no reason to run a double ended hose. Now Bob as you told me you where not in your email, you are the bad guy.

 Smooth,I think you need to find a whip hose somehow,somewhere.Pump operators need to do EVERYTHING in their power to make the situation safe.Is there a reason why you don't use a whip hose?That's what I thought,there isn't one.................

40667

The bad guy is the one with the double ended hose.

How can you not see that?

 Dear 40667

If you ever hurt anyone with a double ended hose I would be happy to testify against you also. It would be an open and shut case. 40667 you are convicted of willful manslaughter, jail time and fine, plus a civil suite to pay the families for the loss of their dad, husband and child. Bob is not the bad guy you are, your obviously are a pro at doing things unsafely which is nothing to brag about.

Did you know that you have liability here, legal and moral? Even if your boss turns a blind eye to it or even tells you to do something wrong, you still have a liability that can come back on you.

I know an operator that was cuffed and brought to jail for as little as letting the hopper overflow and the concrete was in the street. Times are changing my friend.

Bob is not just yelling that the sky is falling he is telling you that you need to do what is safe and protect yourself as well as others around you.

Hey smooth, I have a question for you. If a hose man falls walking up to the hose and hits his head on your double ended hose end and sues you who do you think would win?

Some of Art's analogies were a bit over the top for my tastes but sometimes some people need that motivation. Others it will turn them off. They cant get past it and miss the entire conversation. It doesnt take for a second to plug and kick loose. I new a operator with 20+yrs experience it happened to him and when it kicked loose (he missed the switch, he hit the agitator button instead of the off switch) and the hose jumped up hit one of the laborers ini the back of the head just in the right spot. It drew no blood, but left a nice little bump and paralized the 23 yr old laborer from the neck down for life. Granted it might only happen once in a blue moon, but you just ruined your life and more importantly someone else's. If i caught my operators using a double ended hose as their tip hose, 1st time no incidents 3 days off. 2nd time walking papers. 1st time with a incident immediate termination.

Good post joe, I am with you all the way. Safety always begins at the top. Some of our industry leaders alow it, why? who knows, they even made the rule. Do as i say not as I do. So you can see why when so many of the bosses, even when called to the mat dont care, so why should the operaotrs care, well i can tell you why, operators have liability also.

Exactly, that type of incident also why most people dont allow those stupid S pipes either anymore. It isnt the operators responsibility to worry about the pressure on the contractors forms. Are job is to do our job as safe as possible and as professional as possible and send everyone home safely every night to their loved ones. The rewards dont out way the risks. I have had contractors complain about the extra time to switch out a double ended for a whip hose. I always tell them I'm sorry, but we are done needing two hoses on the boom, it is a company policy as well as personal preference that we do not allow double ended hoses to be used as tip hoses. If you are concerned about the time,it will take me only 5 mins to switch the hoses but I will take 1/2hr off the bill to ease your pain. End of Story.

Todd,

You do not testify against anyone. That is not the job. The job is to read the depositions, look at the documents and answer questions as to what is

acceptable industry practice.

If your actions are within those guidelines there is no problem with an expert witness. Only when you do something that is outside the accepted industry standard do you have a problem.

I was just saying I would, but really i would not. I dont do legal testimony and if asked i would turn it down. i was just trying to say that he deserves to get spanked if he ever hurts someone using a two ended hose.

Dear Todd

Well thank you for the personal attach I appreciate that especially after your tirade a few days ago about how you would not allow this on your web site. I probable should not have used Bob in my example, but he has said he would be happy to be an expert witness against an operator.

I guess you completely missed what I was trying to convey. I have said I do not run a double ended hose very often only on special occasions. When I do, I do not pump fast which I think is the main cause of hose whipping.

Well I guess you made my case on expert witness (acceptable industrial practice) the reason there was a double ended hose on the end of the boom in your above example could have been because he was going up to the 2^nd floor to hook up to placing line. With a hard and fast rule that some of you fellows want, I would like to see you talk your self out of that one.

I bet there are some things that you "would never put double ended hose on" people do that I would never do because I believe it is not safe.

Dear 40667  I understand your point, the problem is that as a few have said that its not a rule in their part of the USA and their boss does not mind so its ok. That is my point. It is a practice that is used in place of using the proper hose.

If we really never run into hose plugs with wipping problems why did Putz come out with this new hose?

Hanover, April 2007Damped concrete pump end hose from mgw honored with innovation award

With a damped end hose for concrete pumps, Mündener Gummiwerk (mgw) and the concrete pump manufacturer Putzmeister have eliminated what has been the most frequent cause of injury in connection with concrete pumps. At the world's major trade show for the construction industry – bauma in Munich – the development was honored with the Innovation Award of the German Building Industry.

Because of the way the end hoses were manufactured in the past, they tended to veer to the side in the event that plug-ups, air pockets or the like caused uncontrolled pressure changes in the pump pipeline. Time and again, people in the vicinity of the hose were injured. According to the workmen's compensation board, occurrences like this account for 80% of all accidents involving concrete pumps.

wow 80% seem like alot.

Oh well, and why would the ACPA come out with this?

http://www.concretepumpers.com/pdfs/Hosewhip_Bulletin_FINAL.pdf

Well GB what do you think of the above post?

Double ended hoses are definately dangerous, but don't you find them too long. All of our 4" and 5" double ended hoses are 20' long. I don't know what the norm is but I like my tip hoses to be about 12'. Find it easier to stay with the hose man. Hope everyone has a safe and happy easter.

I remember when it was okay to use a 5 to 4 reducer and the double end hose, things change and only change after someone is hurt,it was only after these accidents by expierenced operators that most Big companies in the industry made it policy to use single ended hose. I think for a operator not to change his tip hose for the type of pour it is safest for is just lazy. This web site does work because everything I read I take back to work with me everything you post,it keeps me aware of all changes on the pump, in the industry,all the saftey issues everyone has or has had.Agrue or debate over any issue is good it is when we all think stop talking and thinking about safteyor looking at pictures that accidents will happen, when we all stop caring,so far eveyone on this site most care to some degree,or I would be in the bed with wife instead of thinking about the hose and pipe on my truck for tomorrows pour.

Really should prohibit the use of wire braided hoses end hoses in the industry and stick to cotton/textile hoses as a universal standard.

They last longer, more shock absorbent, are in cases 65% lighter on the hose operators body, some rated at higher del pressure, than steel hoses and reduce weight on the tip of the boom.

Most importantly on a wire braided hose, as the hose becomes worn wires have the tendency to spring on the inside of the hose and grab the concrete while in delivery which causes the biggest threat of blockages. You dont want to see that kind of blockage. You would either be 8 meters blown on your butt or cop a facial blowout that would put a truck tyre blowout to shame.

A dual ended hose shouldn't be a problem as long as the lip is flush with the rubber on the bottom end and an S bend is not used. (i.e PM pin pour) Realistically, any tip hose shouldn't have dual end anyway unless your prepared to run some line.