Someone was posting the other day about pumps tipping…..

This got me thinking again …Oh

http://www.cranestodaymagazine.com/story.asp?sectioncode=66&storycode=2037365

I got on line and googled cranes and outrigger cribbing I got this it is from 2006 but a good read never gets old take it for what it is. Lets discuss it.

Awesome of you to take the time and do this on here. I hope people participate, listen and learn like the pros that you are. Pay attention. Never know what we can learn even with many years experience.

Not a bashing session. This is a good opportunity for us all and a great person to listen to and share some knowledge and stuff with us. Need all you guys out there with professional input as Operators to share what you have.

Thanks Travel. I believe this is the kind of thing this site was most meant for.

So whats the math look like again, i know you talked about this once before.

Its great with a formula but it shouldn't be a formula to calculate how LITTLE dunnage we can use. It should all be about feeling. If you don't feel 101% safe don't use a formula to make you feel better. Just use some more dunnage untill you feel you are 101% safe using your own sences and experiance.

I've driven so many pumps in the last 10 years.. from 52 till 20m and in redicules situations where I had to stand in swamps.. I only used my commen sence and  ''' unlazyness''' and it all went well. Like the 52 we saw some time ago with the small pads.. I don't care how the calculation looked like. Its just stupid to use so little pads..

The formula requires some figures put in to it. Where do you get these figures? You ask a super what you are standing on?? A super that first of all reaaaaallllyyy wants to get the job done... Second he could be wrong!!! Use your head!! If you are not sure you have not done enough!!!

Dipstick please dont take this the wrong way it is about being safe. the size of the pad relates to the load.

and you are right the contractor wont always know ,so the burdon is on you to understand the math.

I was a line pump operator when I learned this and had never run a boom, but I learned a valuable principal, and it is a guy thing "go big or go home'

If you passed the ACPA test you did this.

The load on the end of a pump outrigger is a MAX posiable load plus a safety %. so if you build a pad of dunnage with this in mind you are building on the safer side not the lighter side.

In the exapmle I show below I chose a basic 46000 lb load this varies from pump to pump as does the size of foot, so just plug in the numbers that fit your unit.

I did not ever do the math on site as an operator, BUT I did know that a basic pad almost never was suficient to cary the load of the pumps I ran, I knew buy doing this exercise that if I built a bigger pad I drastically reduced the PSI  exposed to the soil. I one time had a 42M sitting in a peat bog on 12 foot square pads I was literaly floating.   so thats 20736 sq inches of plate and pad so if I had the 46000 lb unit in this Instance I would have had aprox 2.2 psi. I dont remember the load of the pump I was running at the time.

I did this a few years back on this site and goe -0- responces...... lets see what happens now, todd help me out can we offer something???

A round pad , R x R x Pi / load = load per sq2 or cm² (depends wich system You use , inch or metric , pound or kilo) Dont all operators has to know that formula ? All pump and craneoperators must know that on the test to get the "pumplicens" or "cranelicens" in Sweden and i did the test for cranes more than 22 years back and pump 18 year....

I dont know the maximum pressuer sq2 in pound but in Sweden it is 5kg / cm² . And I think You mean 2 x 2 feet ? Thats 60 cm x 60 cm = 3600 cm² x 5kg = 18 000 kg or 18 ton I have 27 ton on My outriggers.... My round pads are 120 cm diameter . 60 x 60 x 3.14 = 11304 cm² 27 000 kg / 11304 cm² = 2.39 kg/cm²

Thank youyou have it and yes it is 2 feet square we use feet and inches converting back and forward confuese us all.

thank you for adding  

If my conversion programe is corect 

5 kg/cm2 =71.11 PSI

Actualy realy interesting. Only now to find out the PSI of the soil. You say:

Soil AKA dirt can average from 12 to 75 psi and all over..   Does that mean that the worst possible conditions is 12 psi? Is this something a building company should know about their site?

Thanks for the great info Traveltech.. I just wanted to say better to be sure.. You know.. Like if you doubt in any way just use more dunnage...

On big buildingplaces they have done a geo investigation , how much piling and typ of piling they have to do . Tell the super that You want to see that . And test it with a ironrod Yourself . We have them sign a contract if they dont can say how much the groundpressuer is and if an accident happends it is the builders responsibillity . But if You stand on steelplates or cranematts the pump can go over... If it is something hidden in the ground or a waterpipe breaks or groundwater rise quikly... I have seen cranes and pumps go over that has stand on several m2 of steelplates and Wood . They have stand for many days and suddenly the ground breaks , I think every country or Towns has areas that has terrible groundcondition , many of the member here on the site that always says it is the operators fault operates in perfekt conditions . When a 2'x2' pad is enough under the suportlegs .

Thats true VASA.. I know of a 52m that was standing on cranepads.. You know these 5*1m  (about 17*4 feet) Realy thick tropic wood. Would think they can hold any pump but this one snapped! I never said its always operator error though. Some times its just impossible to know everything... But there are a lot of tipovers that could have been avoided easaly. Maybe only 10/20% is almost unavoidable..

Dipstick I was not thinking of You , You are from Holland but live and work in Norway ? And the groundcondition is not so good in Holland ? And I think that some parts of Norway and Sweden has the same groundcondition with much mud and water....

Vasa you mean something like this cranemats 2.5 by 1 meter

This operator made one mistake. if you don't put your rigger in the middel  you have only half the cribbing

This is a very good post and THANK you all for contributing,

Just getting the point of the math is a huge part of the battle that saves damage and lives.

Do you know what in under the foot? is the dirt good, Plumbing, this is a BIG boom 58+ it there any excuse that this would EVER be legal!

Sad part of things like this is the guy had large timber ON the unit and didnt use it!

I have to ask is it lazy, Ignorant or poor training all 3 can be fixed.

Thank You again and Yes I am passionate about this.

There is no shame in going BIG it should be not just the theme for our "booms"

moor is better.

here in the N/W. I never trust the ground under ANY pump

to maney people are under our boom's

Their is no such thing as over kill.

Thats a big AMEN  NW 63

Thanks for the pics and support.

I  always looked at it like this When I went BIG and did my best then IF something I couldnt know or controle under ground happened, at least I knew I didnt go lazy or cheet. then it would be an accident.

I had a real  eye opener in Japan. We were in the PMJ facility a Paved yard with Steel plates and Large wood blocks under the 70M Training. we experianced an earthquake with the boom open and for the first time in my life I watched a pump dance on its dunnage and the unit wansnt stroking, the quake was short and mild but a 70M sliding around on dunnage squeaking and the boom swinging around was an earie feeling.

I looked down to the plates and pads and was confident we had done our best but some times we cant controle it all.

Guys thanks for doing your best. GO BIG.

I think in the last picture you would have been better off using your pad and the crane mats,too much air in that steel box...

mile mark 96  how much air do you think there is in a outriggerbox. I am not an engeneer but the steel looks good to me to spread the lood over multiple cranemats.

And why using cranemats on a concrete slab.

because concrete can be a bad thing to set up a pump.

look ma,I built a pump out of macoroni.....eeehh

Traveltech. Would love to hear your opinion about his small pads under this 52m.  Without any friends politics please

not open in the middle...they are not just H-Beam's

not just on long boom's even on our 17mtr....

common sense,if it looks like a gater,it's probably a gator.

Just a quick side note on cribbage and looking at NW photo with the steel beams, but I was always shown and instructed to place cribbage whenever possible so it's in line with the O\R. Just in case the pump ever walked a little.

This formula isn't just for operators.  Any person involved with pumps or cranes should know this.  In an era of lawsuits and backcharges any information that helps should not be discounted.  I challenge anybody to go to a super and ask for bigger cribbing because you feel like you need more.  You will feel something alright.  If you ask for bigger cribbing based on a solid number of what is needed to support you there will probably still be an argument but you have something to fall back on that is supported both by the pump and crane industry.  And if there is an accident no one gives a f@#& about your feeling, they will want to no exactly how you decided what size of cribbing was to be used.  Owners/operators/dispatchers and salesmen learn this!! Use it!!  This is one small thing that we should all be able to agree upon as an industry to make us all smarter and safer

 Hallelujah

Holy Shit

Wheres the tylenol

under the feet on my tb130

how about an iphone app toddy to simplify things.and someone made a good point about how do you know what the ground pressure is.im pretty sure i saw a decal on a pump saying not to set up on virgen ground any takers?

Remember the point is if the soil is soft the pad is BIG

A big ship floats "most of the time" so can a pump You can sit on soft soil with the corect square inches of sutiable dunnage under the outriggers for the size of your pump

hear is a test for you 

You have a Peet Bog to set up in your left Frount outrigger will need to sit in the bog.

Max load on the outrigger is 46,000 Lbs

Site Eng tells you the bog will support 2.5 PSI 

How big do you need the pad/plate to be to be safe. Can you do it Safe?

This is a good test for Owners / Sales/ Dispatch/ and operators

PS all 3 other outriggers are on 12 inch thick stable concrete, Factory pad is ok.

1.2 squared mter wil do if my caculating from impirial to metric is right.

I get 18400 square inches. Take the root of that and the cribbage should be 136''x136''

which is 11'4''  x 11'4''

or 3,45 x 3,45 meters

But with this amount you would be right on the limmit of colapsing.. So if it was me I'd go for at least 4x4 meters..

excuse me if I am wrong but

46.000 lbs make 20865KG and

2.5psi is 1757.6KG square meter

Oeps dipstick You are right I just tipt my pump

just one,,,, wrong

But I believe that my experience in the swamps had saved my as.

The pic of the 52 is in that kind of circumstances. When in doubt call in the cranemats.

And this is what I mean with that a calculation is risky..  I know Superdoffer. he is one of the best operators I know..

It only takes a small mistake in your calculation and there you go. But It is great as a help though. Supperdoffer would have noticed while laying down the cribbage that he was almost sinking down in the mud himself and would have realized 1,2x1,2 was to little. Than he would have thought.. wow how in the world can I stand here safe than... And then did the calculation again and he would have known. While without the calculation he might have said this is impossible. Or he would have tried bit by bit untill he felt safe but who can imagine you need 4x4 meter.. Thats a hell of a lot!!

I was just thinking. I would use 3 cranemats of 1x6m = 18m2 (we needed 16m2) and then some steel plate to divide the load over the 3 cranemats. But I guess we need to take the weight of these cranemats in acount to. I'd go for the 20cm. The thickest ones. These will weigh quite a bit. Lets say we ad 6000 lbs in cribbage. Will we still be safe?

46000+6000=52000lbs/ ???=  2,5 psi

52000/2,5= 20800 Square inch we need.

Root of 20800 is  144''x144''=    3,66*3,66m2 = 13,5m2

So we have a good safety margin with the 18m2 cranemats..

I Love this I can almost smell the brain cells smoking, Guys I am impressed, 

Dont forget the number on the outrigger is Outrigger max load, full stick over leg plus a safety margine. you dont get into this range if you dont overload your boom , so building Big based on this math is adding a safe margine.

Please keep up the dialog.

this is gold.

 His pads are fine under these conditions.

 Set up on concrete slab, trying to keep from brakeing it.

 Overkill on the rear.

 Looks like somebody knows there is some sort of ground issue, or overkill.

 Looked like water in front of the pump, or set on a pier.

 Definetly bad ground, looks like moister in the dirt.

 17 meter had to do that to level up, but not built right. Should have been a little wider on bottom. still worked but pryamid style a little better.

 You guys wanted to whine about the green pump having extra dunnage on the side look whats on the ground just below this outrigger.

Funny. This green pump guy must be your friend. You've got something to complain about almost any picture on this tread but noooo. Don't say anything about the 52m guy that has almost no dunnage at all...

He's not even standing on a slab. Where he's standing is prepaired underground for the next poor. You can see the armer laying there.. under the outriggers is no propper armed concrete slab if you ask me..

 I was replying in order of all of the last pictures in order. and no I dont know him. I just dont like people who dont know what they are talking about. I have been running pumps for 33 years, everything from a 23M to a 61M, everything from a 1 story building to a 45 story building and never dumped one. Oh by the way I will be at WOC. Stop by and congradulate me.

 They were not all in order. Northwest 63 was setup on the concrete they did not want to brake.

I've been driving about 10 years.. But does that mean I don't know what I'm talking about? I've heared so many say ''ive been driving for 30+ years but often I wonder if they stoped learning after the first 10 years. So thats in the time that there was no big pumps yet. I don't want to become such a tight world champion that thinks he's finnished learning. I've noticed that I can also learn from someone from a younger generation. Even from guys that started much later then me. And I do know what I'm talking about. I've been standing on all sorts of base with an axact same 52m and know what it can do. My best friend and 2 other coleages have tipped that same 52m. 3 times that damm thing has been laying on his ears!! Thank god nobody got hurt. Would like to help other people with the experiance we've got from the last years. But it looks like thats not apriciated by everyone.

Just keep going for it with this tiny plates but I know which boom I am not standing under..

 Dear dipshit I didnt say I cant learn anything else, I am only 54 years old. Ididnt know the green guy. But if you want to learn a lot more come to Colorado and I,ll help you. I have worked for the biggest company and best company in Southern California MERLI and the best company here. So stop on by some timejunior and we will see.

One thing we all need to remember is the day we stop learning is the day to hang it up.

When I left daily pumping to work for Puts I thought I was king of the sport and I was pretty good, but as I kept learning I found out a lot of things.

And every day I learn more. One key thing I learned was I had been trained by the old timers that had been trained by guys that trained themselves on the,  beat you head against it method. Documentation was Nonexistent, and face it, most of the pumps had different kind of manuals in the rig……. If you get my drift.

During a ride along I would learn about the guys 4x4 or girl friend  or the one he hates now oh and buy the way don’t get close to the power lines, and put out the pads….

A lot of didn’t get QUALITY training. But we made it work.

After an accident happens then all the questions come out like did you do ????????

Can you do ??????

Where did you learn this??????

As I have evolved with Putz I have just continued to grow and learn, every day it is something new, and I love to share it with every one I can.

It is a wonderful feeling when a 25 year veteran quietly comes up to me after a school and thanks me for explaining the math or describing the reason for the bigger outrigger pads, because his old man just did it that way so that’s how its done.

My goal here is to grow the industry towards a safer place and if only 1 guy makes the trip and moves up it is a win, I think a lot more are responding than 1.

There are literally Thousands of variables to every day and every pour, with knowledge we can approach each one of them new and safer than the last.

I will be at the show in Vegas and would Love to see any one of you that attend

Be safe  and of course I will see you in the field .

TT

how true those words are

Dear Do Need Attitude adjustment,

Are you here to complain or just downgrade folks ? If you and your infinite wisdom are so great , why not share it, instead of running your mouth so reckless ? These guys are learning something and you choose to talk shit, to say your 54, have you learned to spread your so-called wealth of knowledge ? or do you just ridicule and chastize ? One question , How many ass whoopins have you taken in your 54 years ? just asking , invite me to come see you at WOC, nothing better than a little ass whoopin in Vegas and maybe you'll be the one doing the congratulating.

Ok, come on guys, we are all family here, lets not forget that. Yes brothers love to fight but lets keep it clean ok. We are all on the same side here.

Yea Beast. This is the guy who should be deleted alright.

Dont need one This is overkill

and it was on boulder clay if you know what that is.

Over kill is never a problem reall is it?

just my 2 cent's

on the 17mter pic.the lower stack is bigger than the outrigger pad...it is done wright!

just saying

Great stuff. Great input. DO not let one unhappy person wreck the good stuff.

Amen Guys thanks for keeping this positive, this is the point to growing safety.

everyone has opinions and open forum's bring them all out.

no one is perfect and not ONE of us can say we have never pushed  a limit, but accidents happen and continue to happen when ignorance prevails.

I must say Todd this post will be one of the topics of the show, glad to see it.

I am sure glad we are not talking Polotics on this forum!!!!!! 

Looks good Superdoffer. A problem with the cranepads is that some forget to put out some cribbage across the cranepads to make sure you are standing on all individual beems in the cranepad. Just put the outrigger on it and you are only standing on 2 of the 5/6 beams..

Treveltek,

thanks for the great info, sorry I had to get a little bent , but seemed as though no one else was gonna say something to shut this guy up, keep up with these informative posts they are great training tools.

I loved your comment

"Vasa" I like your knowledge how to calculate the groundpreassure on a full outrigg - ideed i´m impressed! I run a linepumpcompany and as license-Sweden we live in.....i was forced to have the same pumplecense as you have, only because to run a pumpcompany at all - the government didn´t understand the different that my company is a linepumpingcompany - NO OUTRIGGER. No cheapmoney to get the license!!!

But i can tell you that you know much more than me about calculating groundpresuring around a full outrigged pump - i know nothing about that and i really dont care - but i have the license...the same as you have hehe.

That license do not work so well to show of in a coctailbar.....Not even my wife was impressed of that license (2 expencive handbags and 3 pair of very fancy shoes less, did my concretepumplicense costs her) And i don´t know what use i have to got that license - just because to be a leagal lineconcretepump-companyowner in Sweden.