Concrete Pumping Industry in Bankruptcy Due to the past business practices of our industry in pricing our services to the level of 1980 pricing during a booming economy now makes it impossible for our industry to survive during a below normal economy. Let alone a normal economy. It is impossible today for the majority of pump companies to cover their basic overhead in today’s economy due to our pricing of our services. Let alone pay principal and interest on a concrete pump. Unless this industry makes a drastic change in their business practices and pricing of their services over 50% of our industry will go into bankruptcy or go away in the year 2009. In order for our industry to survive in 2009 attend every business seminar you can attend, and industry conference, and effectively put into practice pricing strategies in order to survive 2009. How can you and other pumpers flat rate jobs – yardage rate jobs or price at prices of 1980? Answer----- YOU CAN’T Let’s make a change! Thank you. Richard O'Brien A Concerned Pumper

Great stuff. WE need all get more like dentists. Never see a dentist cut rate. Why should this very specialized industry cut rate when the cost of the equipment, upkeep, wear, insurance and more just never cut rate to give back to the end user. We are a very specialize industry with very sophisticated equipment, specialized operators and and upkeep costs beyond any in any industry. Val has a very good point. How can you even recover from this at these rates.??

At this point the only way I see for the industry to raise prices to fit with the economy is for all the owners to form a Union,or be part of the existing one,or maybe have the A.C.P.A step in and set prices everyone follows. I am not sure what we sould do,it has always been a cut throat business,so to get everyone to agree on anything will be a miracle..

One thing about union work. Everyone bids at the same rate. If you cut, you get caught up real fast. Same with Rate work. Prevailing rate also keeps everyone bidding on the same page. You cheat, get caught, your out or you are out by cutting rate and not meeting the obligations. Both ways give operators an opportunity to earn a good living with benefits, retirement, and more. 58 I like it. But it is only a sight not to happen in this life.

Very well said. We need a far more professional and business like approach in the industry. Cutting rates to buy the jobs and often compromising safety standards to do so should be a no no. We have the same problem in the industry here downunder.

Val,

good comments, in fact great comments,  I myself have noted the same point a number of times.

In line with that comment however I've noted a lack of leadership in the industry,  seems like the power's  to be  ( those in ACPA positions ) are the ones most guilty of flat rate, and unreasonable pricing.  Until a national voice starts advocating issues such as pricing issues, required adherence to training and safety issues, things are NOT going to change.

thank you

steve

Remember when you were turning down work? Remember when you could not cover all of your pours?

When demand exceeds supply there are two distinctly different ways to react. This is always the case. It does not matter if we are talking about the world supply of oil or concrete pumping service.

When the supply of customers exceeded our [the entire concrete pumping industry] ability to service them; we made the wrong choice. We increased the size of the fleet, not the size of the accounts receivable.

We had the perfect, legitimate time and reason to increase the price of the concrete pumping service business and we blew it.

We as an industry acted like concrete pumpers, not business people.

So what would be a good price per yd?

Good points Bob. Look at the ready mix business operators. Look at their business plans each year, strategies and more.

I have been pondering a union for concrete pump operators thats all one organization worldwide not crane operators not heavy equipment operators concrete pump operators,we need one voice to speak for all,now i have never been a fan of all unions but its time we are united for the better of us all and just maybe we could get the rite leadership to pick our industry back up not what we have in the ACPA either or had, they are the root of these problems im with bob instead of increasing prices owners and manufactureres saw the need to roll out as much equipment as the market could stand look at us now cutting each others throat so we can make payments on machines we cant keep busy the manufacturers cant takem back theyre overloaded the banks dont wantm whos gonna buym when the market picks back up again were in trouble cheap iron for sale at below market pricing and theyre gonna pump cheaper so we as an industry have shit in our own hat is there an answer i dont know unless we can make all this iron disappear i dont see any light at the end of this tunnel no time soon even with a union there will always be ones that are non union and there cost of business will be cheaper its called free enterprise and right to work im not a rhodes scholar but unless you can make alot of concrete pumps dissappear I do believe we have a long row to hoe and all the Big Dogs have the upper hand for now but I see the smaller companies being the ones surviving theyre used to running a tight ship working on smaller budgets lower overhead to all the ones undercutting pumping for $1 a day I hope you all go bankrupt and all should be banned from the industry,greed got us where were at and greed will keep us there

G-man

Steve, I am glad that you included training in your post. It is a part of why we are a bunch of companies and not a group, united by a common cause. Certification of operators is a panacea not a cure for what ails us.

Thanks,

Bob

Your correct,do as the redi-mix companies do.They pass along costs and expenses,there is of course a fine line.

Price Fixing

n.A method in which businesses who are in competition with each other set up a strategy to fix up prices of particular commodities to avoid price competition.It is a criminal act according to federal laws as it encourages unfair competition and the public is deprived of reasonbale prices..This arrangement can also be made between suppliers and manufactures or distributors.

For a company to purchase new equipment someone needs to support it (contractor).Bob made a valid point,the owners missed the boat.It would be extremly hard to raise prices now,but doable.

sounds good here on long island guys will go out for 900 to 1000 flat rate hard to compete with that.

Mr. Obrien, it seems that alot of the responses are not really in tune, with who really controls the national market place. When you have a company like Brundage Bone in every market place in the country training educated men how to research, how little you can charge to pump a single rock from one end of a million dollar machine to the other, and sell that to the customer base that we all share from time to time. we all expierience our first and last visits on alot of jobs with a single invoice,and hoping to cover expenses. When a company that large "that does dictate the national pricing structure" has that mentality, the rest of us better just turn our pumps into planters for our wives. We can all spend as much time as we like educating our selves to death but, when someone as large as them has ruined the pricing structure with their non competitive goals most will not servive. One more thing that they control is the vallue of everyones pumps. If they for some reason put all their pumps in the used pump market place, "which may be soon" we all would have been better off bying bicycles and renting them out! May all their in house scientists wake up soon and help us out! Very truley yours, sleepless in Seattle.

its the back yard guys who have no idea how to charge a client is what kills every body flat rates a shit ther are guys here charging 500 to 800 for house slabs fair enough it gets u work and the money is coming in but sending a 32 or a even a 42 (like some guys do here ) how do you make money on that. charged right and fair eg 3 hr min plus 1 hr travel at your hourly rate and your metre pumped rate.

u might not get every job u put in for but its better then this set rate crap

and anyone doing set rate are just shit whether u are one of the biggest firms or the guy with one old uncertified UNSAFE pump your killing it for the guys that DO IT RIGHT

Its an age old problem thats never goin to go go away. Nobody is ever happy with the rate that they get for the machine. Worldwide its the same, with the same arguments and the same problems . The contractor who buys a machine to cover his own construction work finds the pump standin idle ,or the small operator with a morgage and a family to feed, or the pump company with a fleet of new machines on finance and somebody else workin in the site next door, they will all reduce the rate to get the work . They may package it up saying the cheap rate is for 2hrs work and not 5 or for 20m and the job is 50 but in the end the price comes down! No union (or cartel!) is goin to change this , at the end of the day it comes down to the company or individual who keeps their costs in check and their equipment in order who will win thru.

As a foot note : you guys out there worrying about 500-800 for a house job try 350-400.... with a pound nearly equal to a dollar and a euro....nice!!!! 

Mr O'Brian has made some very valid points,I bet 2009 should be interesting.I'm not sure what the stats are now but Denver used to have more pumps than cars.It was a very over pumped market.Long ago I used to compete against him in the mountains,a pleasureable experience (only 2 companies there).We had rate sheets which we followed which made it simple.There was both honor and friendship between us which is a remarkable feat.I will say those little trailer pumps are getting close to what boom pumps get.

Oh,Mr O'Brian I know you have lost one manager,perhaps two by now.Perhaps you could spend the time to send a short bio of them to Todd with there contributions to our industry.They have been a big part in our area out the last 30 or so years,thank you.

Lets not forget a big part of the problem... Small fleets of brand new pumps in the hands of people that had "No Business" pumping concrete. People who never actually took the time to calculate every single factor of ther costs and over head. From grease, to payroll, to payments and every little thing in between. Had they taken the time to do this, they would have discovered that they've been pumping in reverse for quite some time! What does a pump do in reverse? IT SUCKS!

The ones with "No Business" or Bad Business are well on their way out of business. There is an oportunity at hand. Rather than cutt throat through hard times. The people who are actually in the business of pumping concrete can come together and agree as a majority and take a step forward for our industry. Times are hard enough right now I believe that even the foolish will follow?

20 percent! accross the board, coast to coast. Set a date, make it so........Its a start?

Art, Thank you for your Fantastic comment.It's great to see someone else thinks EXACTLY the way I've seen it for years now. There are way to many Ego's in this industry.Every company from 1 trailer to several booms are included in your comment. I have no intention of attending world of concrete this year and it has nothing to do with money,I can certainly afford to go,but have chosen not too.I can't see spending a few days in Vegas with people who will stab you in the back before you get home.(not everyone included)just the majority in my area. I'm just a little fed up with the whole industry and have decided to take the high road,try to survive thru this mess. Just keep doing what I know best, "provide my customers SERVICE" not a low-ball price.

OK.  This is some dialog I have been waiting to see for a long time.  Having pumped concrete for over ten years myself, and eight of those years I had my own company.  I sold that company and pretty much walked away without showing any profits.  I then pumped for for that company for two more years building their new pump division.  To add to my resume I went to work as a salesman for a pump manufacturer for a couple of years.  I now own a company where I sell new and used pumps and system components here in the Eastern U.S.

I have told you all this to help you understand I have been on both sides of the fence. 

I have no sympathy for the very big pumping companies upper management and owners.  These are the companies who have dug this bottomless pit for everyone else.  There are some people who sit very high up in the ACPA who think they are really something and they feel they set the standards for the industry.  I'm sorry, but these HOT SHOTS are no different than those people on Wall Street who have misdirected the flow of cash and put our economy in the situation it is in today. 

Yes, the pumping industry is pumping for the same rates today as they were in the 1980's.  If you want to know why, it is really simple.  Because of these big companies greed for their market share.  When they see where a market area is growing, they do the only thing they know...  They run in with a boat load of equipment and DROP PRICES.  They create an image in the customers eyes that their previous pump company was screwing them.  They will do whatever it takes to win the market over. 

The result of this is:  The local pumping companies either end up close to bankruptcy, or they lose everything.  Then when the market shows some slowing these big companies move out leaving the market with whoever is left and they know it will take years to get rates back up to where they can break even.   

I have a few remaining customers who are doing well in their area.  The always ask me to keep that to myself, because they know when the word gets out they are going to see the "Big Boys" show up and they could lose everything. 

There may be a few cases where a new pumping company doesn't have enough experience to even belong in the business, however, this isn't what got us to this point.  The HOT SHOTS I mentioned earlier are the problem.  Why?  Becasue they should be setting the example for everyone else.  If they are so smart then why do they feel dropping prices is the answer?  Any kid coming out of college today with a business degree would tell you this is not the way to survive in business.

My answer to all of this is as follows.  For one thing you can't agree to agree on prices.  You could end up in jail for a long time.  The Ready Mix industry is smarter than most, because everytime there is a price increase on something, (or if the wind changes direction), they raise prices.  They don't discuss this, they just follow suite.  Yes, there are companies who come in and drop prices to build their business, but most of the other companies don't take a knee-jerk approach to this.  It doesn't take very long for the other company to either leave, or raise their prices to the area norm.

Pumping companies need to sit down with pencil in hand and run their numbers.  If you can't compete at the prices you are at now then raise  your prices.  Have you seen the pump manufacturers drop their prices over the past twenty years?  No.  Every cost you can imagine has increased and it has increased every year.  The act of pumping concrete has gone down or stayed the same since the 1980's.

I'm sorry but the union isn't going to help anyone here.  It would only add to the cost of running the business.  I am sorry it this pisses some of you off, but it is true. 

I do feel that the industry needs some changes to help effect the image of the pumping companies.  The big companies need to change their business practices and lead for a change.  Someone needs to organize a training/certification program and I am not too sure the ACPA is the best one for this. (Too much partiality).  I believe this should be more of an OSHA mandate where all pump operators should be licensed and be required to carry their license and certification information at all times.  This goes for line pump operators as well. And the local contractors should be required to insist on these documents. That alone would create more of a professional image in the industry and you could charge more for it.  (Just like crane companies do).  

People!  Get off your butts and back in the streets.  Knocking on doors and letting the local contractors know that you live here and work here every day.  When they call you they know who they are going to get.  When they call the BIG BOYS, that just moved in, and are dropping prices, they don't know who they are going to get.  And it is very possible that the other company won't be here next week/month/year.  It will take some salesmanship.  What do you have to offer that they don't?  General contractors need to be educated on what it costs to own and operate this kind of equipment.  Educate your customers.  Don't just join the local home builders assoc.  Attend and be a part of the education process.  Get yourself known.

When one of these big companies moves in to your market and whores it up, burn this website up.  Call the ACPA, make everyone aware of what is happening.  Let them know the motives of these big companies and how their practices have put so many people out of business over the years.  How they move in today and move out tomorrow.

It is like our new president said the other day.  It is sickening and it is irresponsible business practices of these companies that have gotten us to where we are today.  Maybe an advertisement in your local news paper would help.  Don't lie, just state the facts.  Point all the fingers you have left. (I said that for some of you guys who may have lost one or two working in this industry). 

Just know that the people who think they are the Kings of this industry are probably the most ignorant idiots to ever exist.  Until they are out of business (Yup could be real soon now) they will continue to business as usual.

Now is the time to work with someone to get the licensing and cirtification going.  Maybe when the economy returns there will be a new image set for all of you.  

For GOD sake, many of you need to clean up your equipment.  It looks like crap.  Give yourself a more professional appearance.  If you need something to clean the concrete off I sell the stuff.  

I want to add one more thing.  I have picked on the BIG BOYS  pretty hard.  They had it coming.  I am in no way affiliated with any pumping company.  However, I continue to take my hat off to Keith Bauer and the Coastal Carolina Pumping team.  They are what I consider a large pumping company.  They need to be commended for being a leader in our industry.  They have good clean pumps, trained operators, and they don't LOW BALL prices.  They are a true example for everyone to follow.

Kretch,

Once more I see that you have an allegiance to the one company that is responsible for keeping pump prices down in the Carolinas. When will you take the blinders off and see where the problem comes from? Or could it be that company's practices, which you defend, are putting money in YOUR pocket.

You are right, that company is a leader, in the wrong direction.

Please respond.

THis is Good. Open discussion. We will disagree on things and companies in the right and we will agree to disagree on many things.

Look at most posts. One thing we seem to agree on is following a standard like the Ready Mix and most of the Crane industry. Not price setting or fixing and Many has a strong point on that. But to be professional and if you get an increase to pass it to the customer like it is passed to you. Ever notice that every Spring there is a Cement Shortage??? I have seen every Spring for almost 40 years a shortage and low a behold on April 1st we get a notice of a price hike in Concrete. This bad time can really teach us something. Problem is in the Good Old USA we get short term memory when times start getting good again. Need to set better plans and live them like they are law. Look around you. You know the guys who grew within their means and we all know how they did it. We need better disipline going forward.

Vic,  I am happy to reply.

First off I have no ties to Coastal Carolina.  I am not an employee nor a customer.  I have been in the North Carolina for a good many years and have been a competitor of CCP.  My experience goes back nearly 13 years with that company.  I have seen good changes in how they conduct business over the years.  If you are who I think you are, I could possibly see where you may have some animosity.  I am certain that CCP keeps their prices at much higher levels than other companies in other parts of the country.  I also know of one or two larger companies who are in direct competition with CCP, and may have an axe to grinde with them for one reason or another.  But I have seen first hand where they do keep their prices at a competitive level.  I have also overheard a conversation where someone had applied to them for a job and they did not hire them because they were an operator for another company.  I have seen how they keep their equipment in good clean and professional condition.  So if there is something specific you would like to point out I would like to hear it.

Y'all relax.

Every company, every company at one time or another has "bought" a job.

Please don't turn this into a personal Pee'n contest.

Thanks ;~)

Bob,

Kretch started it and I cannot sit idly by. I have known of that company for 30 years and I would not have an axe to grind except Kretch keeps spreading an un-truth. When Kretch omits that company's name from his posts, then I will stop the negative replies. Kretch doesn't know the whole truth or he wouldn't say what he does.

Kretch, Please desist from spreading un-truths. Thank You.

Vic

Sounds like a good solution to the problem.

Thanks, I needed that ;~)

CAPT. VIC YOUR WORDS KEEP GETTING  BIGGER...

Hey Too Tall,

I guess I am frustrated that the keys I am punching only click very quietly.

 How's the weather? lol

Its geting warmer!!! :)

im likin this post.  havnt been in the industry long enough to know who what why where.  just wanna pump.

in just about every market there is a company for whatever reason thinks they can do it cheaper,now as a manager my job is to keep a company with work now if i have to compete with lowballers what do you do? you have to compete rite ? or go out of business , as long as there is free enterprise you will have competition i refer to a new age remark " DONT HATE THE PLAYER HATE THE GAME" the government has it so we cant set our rules to the game so we just play it with no rules no boundaries and in every other game we would call them cheaters and they are, but in this game theyre called winners, BIG DOGS,#1 pump companies, me myself call them losers,idiots,morons,dumda---, and the list could go on and on but bottom line is all we can do is compete to the end and then who will crowned champs ? I dont know but I will continue to compete at what level I dont know and in the end thats all we can do.

Idon't know what part of the US . you are in but in florida most of the prices are lower than 1980' the boom prices are rock bottom some of these guys are pumping 50 yard slabs for $ 350.00 flat rate thats just stupid.to take a piece of equipment that cost over 400,000.00 and do that . but look in time every time it slows down some one goes out and cuts prices and then braggs about how much work they have. I Have been in business for 18 Years and run all trailer pumps and probably will never buy a boom I can't see whoring out my pumps.Right now I get more by the hour then a 28 & 32 meter boom PUMP COMPANYS NEED TO BAND TOGETHER AND KEEP PRICES UP PROFIT IS NOT A DIRTY WORD WITH OUT ITARE INDUSTREY WILL FALL BY THE WAY SIDE

but what everyone keeps suggesting is illegal,unless your a oil company or banks we cant get together and fix prices why because this is one of the few rules we have and its killing us, we cant get together and fix prices but why not publicize our price sheets ? because then the cheaters lowball its a f-cked up situation with no easy way out just do what you can,350-400 dollar flat rates you want have to worry about them very long if you have the capital to hang in youll make it if not he wins what a terrible feeling to know you played the game right and as hard as you could and still dont come out on top that sucks cheaters never win and winners never cheat what a crock of shit atleast in this industry

In a perfect world, there would be work for all at a fair price and business owners across America would flourish, as would their employees. Everyone would be everyone elses friend—banks, equipment sellers, and buyers would live in harmony too. The little guy and the big guy would work hand-in-hand to cover every square mile of America in concrete construction, and the sunshine and blue skies would smile on us all. This is 2009. This is the worst economy the U.S. has seen since the Depression and ultimately may be worse than the Depression. By the time we see a recovery, there won’t be one industry in America that won’t see huge losses—unemployment, bankruptcy, doors closed. What I don’t understand about what I’ve read on this message board is why concrete pumpers believe that they’re immune to the economic conditions and needn’t do all they can to survive, which includes cutting prices. Are department stores insisting that their prices remain the same? Is the car dealer? The grocer? Even my attorney has cut his rate by $200 an hour. And all of them have let employees go. Blaming one another for our troubles in the concrete pumping industry isn’t getting us anywhere. And believing that running our businesses “right” somehow protects us from the bad economy and big boys is naïve. Whether we like it or not, we do stand or fall alone, as does every other business the world over. I’m down to two pumps and one pumper/salesman/superintendent of nothing, and a greatly reduced price sheet. How can I, as Richard O’Brien asks, survive with my lowered prices? I’m counting on volume of business, which I don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting if I don’t cut my prices. Will I be able to survive then? I don’t know, but I’m not going to sit around crying about what bastards my competitors are, or sing songs of sorrow because the ACPA has done me wrong. My laments will only fall on deaf ears, while the competition walks off with the jobs.

What was the reason for those prices in 2005 or 2006? That is the real issue.

Yes, we are screwed right along with everyone else... now. No one will walk away from this deal unaffected. We all are going to do whatever will/may save our companies. Raising prices now is in the 'It ain't going to happen' category.

Good luck with yours.